Didn't Buffy say she'd let Dawn die if she had it over again?

[shiner]

Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

[andy]

The statement was made about the present situation with the first, that if
she had to she'd sacrifice dawn to end the threat of The First. It really
had nothing to do with Season 5.

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

[Mathew R. Ignash]

Post by andy
The statement was made about the present situation with the first, that if
she had to she'd sacrifice dawn to end the threat of The First. It really
had nothing to do with Season 5.

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

Sure it does. It shows Buffy had become a hard nosed bitch who would kill her
own sister to save the world, as opposed to in season 5, where she said she's go
down fighting with dawn at her side wither then sacrifice her to save the world.

I think Buffy did come back a demon, or at least lost some humanity in there.

[Arnold Kim]

Post by Mathew R. Ignash

Post by andy
The statement was made about the present situation with the first, that if
she had to she'd sacrifice dawn to end the threat of The First. It really
had nothing to do with Season 5.

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

Sure it does. It shows Buffy had become a hard nosed bitch who would kill her
own sister to save the world, as opposed to in season 5, where she said she's go
down fighting with dawn at her side wither then sacrifice her to save the world.

So you'd rather take a chance on a deux ex machina than take what would
otherwise be the most logical and pragmatic answer.

Did you think the same of Buffy when she sacrificed her boyfriend?

Arnold Kim

[Peter Meilinger]

Post by andy
The statement was made about the present situation with the first, that if
she had to she'd sacrifice dawn to end the threat of The First. It really
had nothing to do with Season 5.

Please tell me that Buffy didn't go on to say that she wouldn't
be able to sacrifice someone else. Specifically Spike.

Please.

And I agree with Matthew - it's definitely a contrast to her
view in season five, when she said she'd have let the entire
world be destroyed rather than sacrifice Dawn.

She was crazy then, and she comes off as heartless now. I'd
say the real Buffy should be somewhere in between.

Pete

[Carmikl]

Post by Peter Meilinger

Post by andy
The statement was made about the present situation with the first, that if
she had to she'd sacrifice dawn to end the threat of The First. It really
had nothing to do with Season 5.

Please tell me that Buffy didn't go on to say that she wouldn't
be able to sacrifice someone else. Specifically Spike.
Please.
And I agree with Matthew - it's definitely a contrast to her
view in season five, when she said she'd have let the entire
world be destroyed rather than sacrifice Dawn.
She was crazy then, and she comes off as heartless now. I'd
say the real Buffy should be somewhere in between.
Pete

Halfway between crazy and heartless? Doesn't leave much room for mood
swings.

[Ian]

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

She did say that, more or less. I don't know if it destroys the point
of season 5 so much as highlight how Buffy's character had changed by
the point in season 7. By the time of her conversation with Giles, I
think the only person she wasn't willing to sacrifice was Spike, and
she was more than willing to sacrifice everyone else to protect him
and his interests.

[Snuggles]

Post by Ian

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

She did say that, more or less. I don't know if it destroys the point
of season 5 so much as highlight how Buffy's character had changed by
the point in season 7. By the time of her conversation with Giles, I
think the only person she wasn't willing to sacrifice was Spike, and
she was more than willing to sacrifice everyone else to protect him
and his interests.

Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs. Why did she think Spike was that important? Sure,
he was superstrong but that was hardly important when going up against
Mr. Ghosty. Sure.... he wore the amulet at the end but then so could
have Angel, or Faith, or Buffy. Heck.... even Willow or Dawn might have
had the juice (although they weren't champions). Xander was a champion
but even with his superhealing powers he most likely would have burnt up
too soon.

[Rose]

Post by Snuggles
Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs.

She never said that, implied that, or acted in such a way. She said she would
sacrifice Dawn if it was the only way to save humanity. The finale made it
obvious she WAS willing to sacrifice Spike to save all humanity, as well.
Reluctant, but willing.

She was angry at Giles for trying to kill Spike but it wasn't even made clear
that that was because she liked Spike. She believed Spike was necessary to
saving the world. Even though she was angry with Giles and Wood she continued
to tolerate them because she needed every pair of hands to help save the world.

Buffy used bad judgment in "Lies" but she gave no indication that Spike's life
was more important to her than Dawn's.

Rose

[Ian]

Post by Rose

Post by Snuggles
Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs.

She never said that, implied that, or acted in such a way.

Ah, this discussion makes me nostalgic for the old debates.

FWIW, my comments were based on the fact that Buffy repeatedly refused
to take any reasonable steps to restrain or otherwise control Spike
during the period when he was a known danger due to the "trigger". I
think it was pretty obvious by the latter part of the season that her
feelings for Spike were such that she was willing to put her friends
and sister at risk rather than take steps to prevent Spike from
hurting them.

No biggie.

[Rose]

Subject: Re: Didn't Buffy say she'd let Dawn die if she had it over again?
Date: 7/15/2003 3:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Post by Rose

Post by Snuggles
Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs.

She never said that, implied that, or acted in such a way.

Ah, this discussion makes me nostalgic for the old debates.
FWIW, my comments were based on the fact that Buffy repeatedly refused
to take any reasonable steps to restrain or otherwise control Spike
during the period when he was a known danger due to the "trigger". I
think it was pretty obvious by the latter part of the season that her
feelings for Spike were such that she was willing to put her friends
and sister at risk rather than take steps to prevent Spike from
hurting them.

That's what I mean by Buffy using bad judgment. Buffy didn't see it as risking
her friends' lives because she believed, however wrong-headedly, that her
friends were safe as houses from him.

That's not the same as being unwilling to sacrifice Spike if it was the only
way to save all of humanity. IMO, she did just that at the end. She knew that
wearing the amulet was risky but instead of giving it to Faith or Willow (more
than human, with souls) she gave it to Spike. She knew he was taking an extra
risk with his life to save the world and she was more than willing for him to
take that risk.



Rose

[Ian]

Post by Rose

Subject: Re: Didn't Buffy say she'd let Dawn die if she had it over again?
Date: 7/15/2003 3:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Post by Rose

Post by Snuggles
Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs.

She never said that, implied that, or acted in such a way.

Ah, this discussion makes me nostalgic for the old debates.
FWIW, my comments were based on the fact that Buffy repeatedly refused
to take any reasonable steps to restrain or otherwise control Spike
during the period when he was a known danger due to the "trigger". I
think it was pretty obvious by the latter part of the season that her
feelings for Spike were such that she was willing to put her friends
and sister at risk rather than take steps to prevent Spike from
hurting them.

That's what I mean by Buffy using bad judgment. Buffy didn't see it as risking
her friends' lives because she believed, however wrong-headedly, that her
friends were safe as houses from him.

Bad judgment? I think you're talking specifically about LMPTM? That's
the episode where she refused to restrain Spike minutes after the
trigger had caused him to attempt to assault the group and even injure
Dawn?

Bad judgment is one word for it, I suppose. But I'll stick with my
inference, ie. that Spike's well being was so important to Buffy by
that point that she placed above the safety of her friends and sister.

I note, in passing, that that was not the only instance where Buffy
failed to take steps to ensure that her friends were safe from Spike.

Post by Rose
That's not the same as being unwilling to sacrifice Spike if it was the only
way to save all of humanity. IMO, she did just that at the end. She knew that
wearing the amulet was risky but instead of giving it to Faith or Willow (more
than human, with souls) she gave it to Spike. She knew he was taking an extra
risk with his life to save the world and she was more than willing for him to
take that risk.

Buffy did let Spike sacrifice herself, but I don't think she let him
take any greater risks than she did the others, FWIW.

[EGK]

Post by Ian

Post by Rose
That's what I mean by Buffy using bad judgment. Buffy didn't see it as risking
her friends' lives because she believed, however wrong-headedly, that her
friends were safe as houses from him.

Bad judgment? I think you're talking specifically about LMPTM? That's
the episode where she refused to restrain Spike minutes after the
trigger had caused him to attempt to assault the group and even injure
Dawn?

It was the magic stone that Giles stuffed into Spike's head that made
him go berserk and attack them.

Not exactly. The magic stone simply found the song trigger. The First
could have triggered him at any time and Buffy knew that or should have. It
was still extremely poor judgement on her part risking everyone else in the
house.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------

"There would be a lot more civility in this world if people
didn't take that as an invitation to walk all over you"
- (Calvin and Hobbes)

email: [e-mail]

[Snuggles]

Post by EGK

Post by Ian

Post by Rose
That's what I mean by Buffy using bad judgment. Buffy didn't see it as risking
her friends' lives because she believed, however wrong-headedly, that her
friends were safe as houses from him.

Bad judgment? I think you're talking specifically about LMPTM? That's
the episode where she refused to restrain Spike minutes after the
trigger had caused him to attempt to assault the group and even injure
Dawn?

It was the magic stone that Giles stuffed into Spike's head that made
him go berserk and attack them.

Not exactly. The magic stone simply found the song trigger. The First
could have triggered him at any time and Buffy knew that or should have. It
was still extremely poor judgement on her part risking everyone else in the
house.

Heck.... Giles was the only one trying to help Spike. I didn't see Buffy
or Willow doing anything to de-trigger Spike.

[himiko]

Post by Rose

Subject: Re: Didn't Buffy say she'd let Dawn die if she had it over again?
Date: 7/15/2003 3:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Post by Rose

Post by Snuggles
Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs.

She never said that, implied that, or acted in such a way.

Ah, this discussion makes me nostalgic for the old debates.
FWIW, my comments were based on the fact that Buffy repeatedly refused
to take any reasonable steps to restrain or otherwise control Spike
during the period when he was a known danger due to the "trigger". I
think it was pretty obvious by the latter part of the season that her
feelings for Spike were such that she was willing to put her friends
and sister at risk rather than take steps to prevent Spike from
hurting them.

That's what I mean by Buffy using bad judgment. Buffy didn't see it as risking
her friends' lives because she believed, however wrong-headedly, that her
friends were safe as houses from him.
That's not the same as being unwilling to sacrifice Spike if it was the only
way to save all of humanity. IMO, she did just that at the end. She knew that
wearing the amulet was risky but instead of giving it to Faith or Willow (more
than human, with souls) she gave it to Spike. She knew he was taking an extra
risk with his life to save the world and she was more than willing for him to
take that risk.

I'd say stronger than that. She wanted him to have that
opportunity...even if it led to his death. Buffy's saved the world
many times and died a glorious death herself. She knows that these
are deeply meaningful experiences. And she wanted Spike to have a
chance at this experience.

himiko

[Snuggles]

Post by himiko

Post by Rose

Subject: Re: Didn't Buffy say she'd let Dawn die if she had it over again?
Date: 7/15/2003 3:10 PM Pacific Daylight Time

Post by Rose

Post by Snuggles
Yeah.... what was that about? I'll kill my sister but protect my former
boytoy at all costs.

She never said that, implied that, or acted in such a way.

Ah, this discussion makes me nostalgic for the old debates.
FWIW, my comments were based on the fact that Buffy repeatedly refused
to take any reasonable steps to restrain or otherwise control Spike
during the period when he was a known danger due to the "trigger". I
think it was pretty obvious by the latter part of the season that her
feelings for Spike were such that she was willing to put her friends
and sister at risk rather than take steps to prevent Spike from
hurting them.

That's what I mean by Buffy using bad judgment. Buffy didn't see it as risking
her friends' lives because she believed, however wrong-headedly, that her
friends were safe as houses from him.
That's not the same as being unwilling to sacrifice Spike if it was the only
way to save all of humanity. IMO, she did just that at the end. She knew that
wearing the amulet was risky but instead of giving it to Faith or Willow (more
than human, with souls) she gave it to Spike. She knew he was taking an extra
risk with his life to save the world and she was more than willing for him to
take that risk.

I'd say stronger than that. She wanted him to have that
opportunity...even if it led to his death. Buffy's saved the world
many times and died a glorious death herself. She knows that these
are deeply meaningful experiences. And she wanted Spike to have a
chance at this experience.

However, Buffy told Giles that this time she'd be willing to push Dawn
off the tower rather jump into the portal herself. I think coming back
cheapened the experience for her....

[Jillun]

Post by Snuggles
However, Buffy told Giles that this time she'd be willing to push Dawn
off the tower rather jump into the portal herself. I think coming back
cheapened the experience for her....

You know, I watched that episode. And I don't remember anything
remotely like that being said. I do appreciate inventive imaginings,
but seriously.

[NightBaron]

Post by Snuggles

Post by himiko
I'd say stronger than that. She wanted him to have that
opportunity...even if it led to his death. Buffy's saved the world
many times and died a glorious death herself. She knows that these
are deeply meaningful experiences. And she wanted Spike to have a
chance at this experience.

However, Buffy told Giles that this time she'd be willing to push Dawn
off the tower rather jump into the portal herself. I think coming back
cheapened the experience for her....

Well, knowing what she knows, pushing Dawn would have been the BEST
thing for everyone. First, her sister would be as happy as she could
be in heaven, second, Buffy wouldn't have been resurrected and
depressed, Willow wouldn't have dwelled in the dark magics as much,
etc...

[Ian]

Post by himiko
I'd say stronger than that. She wanted him to have that
opportunity...even if it led to his death. Buffy's saved the world
many times and died a glorious death herself. She knows that these
are deeply meaningful experiences. And she wanted Spike to have a
chance at this experience.
himiko

Hm. Not quite sure I agree, but that's a very interesting and
plausible take on it.

Perhaps that would go some way to explaining the reason Buffy was so
unwilling to compromise Spike's interest to protect her friends and
family.

[greedo]

Come and visit my new Buffy site at,
http://members.allstream.net/~greedo/bufster.html
lots of FHM pics of the girls of Buffy, episode trailers(although temp down),
wavs, the Buffy beer game, links and more, brand new, cmon and see it!

[Rose]

Subject: Re: Didn't Buffy say she'd let Dawn die if she had it over again?
Date: 7/15/2003 8:29 AM Pacific Daylight Time

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

She did say that, more or less. I don't know if it destroys the point
of season 5 so much as highlight how Buffy's character had changed by
the point in season 7. By the time of her conversation with Giles, I
think the only person she wasn't willing to sacrifice was Spike, and
she was more than willing to sacrifice everyone else to protect him
and his interests.

She was willing to sacrifice Spike. She couldn't risk Angel, but she could
risk Spike, all right, by having him wear the amulet. She let Spike stay and
die rather than drag him out of the hellmouth behind her.


Rose

[William George Ferguson]

Post by Ian

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

She did say that, more or less. I don't know if it destroys the point
of season 5 so much as highlight how Buffy's character had changed by
the point in season 7. By the time of her conversation with Giles, I
think the only person she wasn't willing to sacrifice was Spike, and
she was more than willing to sacrifice everyone else to protect him
and his interests.

She sacrificed Spike.

She protected Angel from the final battle, and tried to protect Dawn and
Xander.

[Ian]

Post by William George Ferguson

Post by Ian

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

She did say that, more or less. I don't know if it destroys the point
of season 5 so much as highlight how Buffy's character had changed by
the point in season 7. By the time of her conversation with Giles, I
think the only person she wasn't willing to sacrifice was Spike, and
she was more than willing to sacrifice everyone else to protect him
and his interests.

She sacrificed Spike.

I thought it was Spike who sacrificed himself.

Post by William George Ferguson
She protected Angel from the final battle

I thought she sent him away to provide for a second line of defence.

Post by William George Ferguson
and tried to protect Dawn and Xander.

She did. But not to protect them from Spike. She refused to take
steps to protect them from Spike.

[Don Sample]

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

The situation has changed. Buffy had changed. Dawn has changed.

For one thing, Buffy now knows: dieing--kinda fun.

For another Dawn had grown up a lot over the last two years, and
Buffy's attitude toward her has changed. Dawn isn't the little girl
who needs protecting anymore. She's a young woman who of her own free
will has chosen to stay with Buffy, and help her in the fight against
evil. That means that she's at risk, just as Xander and Willow and the
others are at risk. Seeing Dawn as an adult means that Buffy has to
allow her adult risks.

[AE Jabbour]

Post by Don Sample

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

The situation has changed. Buffy had changed. Dawn has changed.
For one thing, Buffy now knows: dieing--kinda fun.
For another Dawn had grown up a lot over the last two years, and
Buffy's attitude toward her has changed. Dawn isn't the little girl
who needs protecting anymore. She's a young woman who of her own free
will has chosen to stay with Buffy, and help her in the fight against
evil. That means that she's at risk, just as Xander and Willow and the
others are at risk. Seeing Dawn as an adult means that Buffy has to
allow her adult risks.

Good point, Don. I hadn't seen the episode in question, so I can
only go by what people say. But I was somewhat troubled when I read
the beginning of this thread.

Your explanation actually satisfies my worry.

However, what bothers me most about the Buffy - Dawn dynamic, is that
Buffy kept telling Dawn, at the end of S6, that she didn't want
to hide her from the world, she wanted to show her the world. There
was implicit in their relationship the idea that Dawn would
advance, would move on as a character. In the parts of S7 I saw,
it wasn't there. It was compeltely dropped, unless it was all
in the episodes I missed ( which would be very strange).

I'm sorry that they didn't do more with Dawn. As far back as
"The Real Me" I thought she had great potential as a character.
It was never realized, as far as I can tell.

[Peter Morris]

Post by shiner
Am I wrong or does Giles ask BUffy at one point if she could do it all
again she would have let Dawn die and Buffy says yes? WHat did I
miss? When and why did she come to this decision? If so it ruins the
whole season 5 end for me, and just makes it seem pointless of Buffy
taking the fall for Dawn.

I don't think anything changed. I think that there was an unspoken part
to her reply to Giles. I think that she meant "yes, I'd sacrifice Dawn,
as long as sacrificing myself wasn't an option this time" I'm sure she would
still sacrifice herself to save Dawn, if it were an option.